Preventing Financial Abuse in Intimate Relationships with Judy Postmus, PhD, ACSW

What happens when you feel trapped or threatened in a relationship because of money? For National Domestic Abuse Awareness Month, we're talking about an often unseen form: financial and economic abuse. University of Maryland School of Social Work Dean Judy Postmus, PhD, ACSW, (4:12) will share what she's learned from survivors through her research, helping to identify what financial abuse looks like, how to help empower victims and what to do if you or someone you know needs assistance to break away from their abuser.  Postmus also shares a little bit about her journey as a daughter of Dutch immigrants living in Miami to dean of the School of Social Work in Baltimore (33:00).

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Transcript

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Judy Postmus: 0:00

Just having conversations with individuals around money, which is hard because our society, you know, a few things we don't talk about, we don't talk about politics. We don't talk about money. We don't talk about sex. So it's, so it's hard, you know, to have conversations around money with your friends and family. So you might not know unless you ask.

Dana Rampolla: 0:36

Have you guys had checkbooks?

Jena Frick: 0:38

I have a checkbook. Yes. And I've get, I've gotten invited to so many weddings this past year and any, instead of registering for a gift online, I will write them a check and put it in the card.

Dana Rampolla: 0:48

Okay.

Jena Frick: 0:48

So I've used it many times.

Dana Rampolla: 0:50

Okay. It seems to me that a lot of young people really aren't growing up, learning about money. The way that I grew up in, you know, I, in high school, we had a little class that talked about financial literacy and you, you had a checkbook and you had part of your quiz was to fill out checks and figure out how to balance a checkbook.

Jena Frick: 1:07

I learned how to do that in school actually. Did you? Yes, I did. I mean, it wasn't called a financial literacy course. It was part. It was part of what, I guess you would technically call Home Ec, but it was called, um,

Dana Rampolla: 1:17

interesting

Jena Frick: 1:18

Family and consumer sciences.

Dana Rampolla: 1:19

Ooh.

Jena Frick: 1:20

And part of that was about learning about finances and learning how to write a check. And then we actually watched the. Movie "Blank Check,", which is so simply that's funny what a terrible lesson in money.

Dana Rampolla: 1:31

Haven't seen it

Charles Schelle: 1:32

Now,my Home Ec classes in middle school, we were not taught about money. So I'm in that population definitely where money skills and appropriately budgeting and, and knowing about your money, how to control it, not there at all.

Dana Rampolla: 1:44

Well, and I have five young adult kids and they have not learned in school. We, we taught our kids how to manage their money. They, and most of them. So Jen, I'm surprised with you. Most of them don't have checking accounts or if they do it's for that rare time, you have to write a check for something unusual. You know, they Zelle , they Venmo, they're not... Jena Frick: Sure. So being educated on your finances and how to take care of yourself and your money is incredibly important because really whoever controls the money in a situation controls everything. So you know, if you are with someone, with a partner, someone you're intimate with, and they take control of your finances, they have complete control over you and, and your next moves and what you can do and what you can access. And usually it doesn't just end with that. It's that they're controlling you. There could be physical control, there's emotional control. There could be violence in that relationship. So it could just be the tipping point of a whole lot of things gone awry.

Jena Frick: 2:47

And something that we learned today in a conversation with, Dr. Judy Postmus, the Dean of the University of Maryland School of Social Work, we talk about how financial abuse is, is something that, you know, isn't really necessarily talked about, but is a huge, huge part of, uh, domestic violence and people who maybe are, are in need of help, but it's not recognized because financial abuse is not something necessarily talked about. It's usually the physical violence and the emotional violence that people respond to. But what are you going to do if your partner destroys your credit and you can't, uh, find a new place to live because of that. What are you gonna do if they cut up your clothes and you can't go on job interviews? That's all forms of financial abuse. And, and what can people do if they see a loved one who's in that situation? Or you, yourself find yourself in a situation like that. What are the resources you can find? What are the steps you can take to get out of that? And that, that's, uh, goes into the conversation that we had with Dr. Postmus today. And really, she's shed a lot of light on this situation.

Charles Schelle: 3:51

Right. The, the amount of coercive control in a relationship over money and, and having the power over that and being able to escape, it's scary sometimes. And so, as you said, we've, we've learned a lot. And so here's our conversation with Dean Judy Postmus.. Dean Judy Postmus thank you for coming onto the UMB Pulse. We know it is a very busy time of year, uh, as we were talking before we hit the record button, but it's also like a really busy time of year for awareness mm-hmm . Even though social worker month is back in March. October is a pretty full month when you have bullying prevention, health literacy month, uh, mental illness awareness week is October 2nd through the eighth and October is also domestic violence prevention month, but a lot of your research terms, domestic violence as intimate partner violence. So I wanted to start off that first. Why the difference and, and is it a moniker that, uh, we should adapt, uh, intimate partner violence?

Judy Postmus: 4:57

Right. So thank you for having me here today and appreciate taking the time and for the attention for Domestic Violence Awareness Month. Um, so, the terms, domestic violence and intimate partner violence are interchangeable. Um, and it's, it's a matter of. Researchers and practitioners didn't necessarily like the word domestic. And so they changed it to intimate partner violence to be a little bit more descriptive. But they mean the same thing. Okay.

Charles Schelle: 5:20

I know with some research, they, are very particular and, and trying to be more equitable, I guess, as, as part of the representation. So that's good to know about the, interchanging of those terms. So

Judy Postmus: 5:31

The terms have evolved over time.

Charles Schelle: 5:32

Yeah.

Judy Postmus: 5:32

I mean, it started as wife abuse and clearly we needed to change that, so.

Jena Frick: 5:36

Oh, definitely. no, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, because I mean, you don't have to domestically reside with a partner for there to be abuse.

Judy Postmus: 5:42

Correct.

Jena Frick: 5:43

So intimate partner definitely encapsulates everything. Correct. It makes a lot more sense.

Charles Schelle: 5:47

So in today's conversation, we're going to focus on a form called financial and economic abuse. And this is just one piece of your research that you do, centering around intimate partner violence. So let's start off about what does that look like? What does economic and financial abuse look like in a relationship? And it can be more than just strictly money, right?

Judy Postmus: 6:09

Correct. To understand domestic violence or intimate partner violence, you have to start with understanding that it isn't just physical violence. There's a number of strategies in which an abuser tries to, um, Uh, control and maintain and coercively control their partner into doing what they want. So a number of strategies, number of tactics, physical violence certainly is one of them, usually not early on in the relationship. Um, other forms that people have focused on primarily in the field have been emotional abuse, um, and some sexual violence that also occurs in relationships. We've always talked though about strategies around financial and economic abuse that the abuser uses, but, but not much attention was given to it as one of the forms of abuse. And partly because the, the domestic violence movement really focused on trying to get criminal laws in place. And so they had to fo they focused only on physical violence and some sexual violence. So recently, and by recently, I mean, ah, like the late 2000s, um, I was invited to evaluate a financial literacy program for survivors of domestic violence, um, in cooperation with the Allstate foundation and the national network to end domestic violence.. And so since it's financial literacy, I'm like, well, we need to look at financial abuse and was able to find a scale and a measure, um, that we have since even adapted further. So it's instead of 28, questions it's 12 questions called the Scale of Economic Abuse 12. And I talk about the scale because what we found is three types of financial abuse and talking to survivors. The first type and interrupt me anytime you want. The first, the first type of, of abuse is, um, uh, economic control where an abuser will control how the money is spent, insists on having receipts brought back from any money given out, um, will control every aspect of the financial matters and management in the relationship. Second form of financial abuse is economic exploitation, where an abuser will exploit the financial standing of the individual. So for example, they'll take credit cards out in their partner's name. They'll run up credit. They won't pay bills on time, which then lowers credit scores and it exploits the financial situation. Um, I talked to a survivor once who said that her partner opened up, um, a business in her name that went bankrupt.

Charles Schelle: 8:38

Mm-hmm

Judy Postmus: 8:38

And so she was now held liable and had no idea that this had happened.

Charles Schelle: 8:41

Geez.

Judy Postmus: 8:41

So that's, that's another form of financial abuse that clearly has long lasting implications, especially when we're talking about credit scores and in the final form of financial abuse um, we call it employment sabotage where the abuser will try to disrupt the employment of a survivor. So for example, that he might call frequently and get her in trouble or make her late for work. I've heard from survivors that that partners will, you know, cut up clothes or take the car when they're supposed to have it or

Jena Frick: 9:14

Cut up clothes?

Judy Postmus: 9:14

Disrupt clothes. Yeah.

Dana Rampolla: 9:15

Gosh, like destroy my gosh.

Judy Postmus: 9:17

Destroy.

Jena Frick: 9:17

Like their work clothes?

Judy Postmus: 9:18

Their work clothes.. Yeah. Cause then you can't go to. You can't go, if you don't have clothes to wear, um, or, you know, disrupt childcare or whatever, whatever, in a way to, to sabotage any employment effort. Because as we know, money plays a huge role in self sufficiency. And so, so those are the three different types of abuse. And as I'm talking about, you can realize the outcome can be quite longstanding.

Charles Schelle: 9:41

Yeah.

Jena Frick: 9:41

Right.

Judy Postmus: 9:42

Whereas if you, if you're hit and you have broken bones or bruises, they will heal in a shorter amount of time, but repairing a credit that's been damaged can take decades for something,

Dana Rampolla: 9:52

Right..

Jena Frick: 9:52

Yeah. Is this something that usually, um, is, is also paired with like a, physical abuse or, or sexual abuse or something? Or is this something that you often see like stands by itself like this as a specific form of control?

Judy Postmus: 10:06

So, uh, in the studies that I've done, I've seen it paired with physical sexual and emotional abuse. I don't believe we have ever seen it alone, but we also don't have a national study that looks at the prevalence of this in our country. Australia looked at it, um, and they found, you know, high percentages and my studies were survivors. Now, clearly they're a sample that of survivors, not just anybody. Um, we found high rates of economic abuse, you know, ranging from 90 to 95% were experiencing it. In fact survivors would say in interviews. Wow. I knew all about all these other forms of abuse, never realized he was abusing me this way. Didn't even realize this was happening even when they were getting services and getting the help for the domestic violence.

Jena Frick: 10:46

Right. I was actually just thinking that, as you were saying it, this is not like something I would consider a form of abuse. I would consider, you know, like maybe just a form of control or, you know, but I didn't realize that there was, this is a whole category. Right?

Dana Rampolla: 10:56

Right.

Judy Postmus: 10:57

Well, when you think about money, I mean, you think about relationships and money, you know, it's, it's tricky. I mean, even the government, if you're married, you're now viewed as one. And , what problems you have financially are my problems.

Charles Schelle: 11:10

Right,, right, right.

Judy Postmus: 11:11

And so it becomes really challenging, um, because it isn't against the law to do these things.

Charles Schelle: 11:16

Yeah.

Dana Rampolla: 11:16

And that's what I was wondering is it's also for the abuser, it can be self-destructive because you are tied together financially in a lot of ways, if you're filing joint taxes and

Judy Postmus: 11:26

Correct.

Dana Rampolla: 11:27

Okay,

Jena Frick: 11:27

Well, they don't have to be married for the person to have

Charles Schelle: 11:29

That's right.

Jena Frick: 11:29

Financially abuse the other, correct?

Dana Rampolla: 11:31

Right, right.

Judy Postmus: 11:31

No, correct. I mean, if, you know, I mean, think about it. If you, you know, have a, a partner that, you know, some basic information like, oh, I don't know their social security number, their, their mother's maiden name or the first car they drove. And you think about all those questions that are asked of us, especially when we deal with financial institutions, it's somewhat easy to do things and to get away with it. I mean, again, it's not. It's not stealing someone's identity, but in some ways it is, but it's because you know, all the information and you're still with that person.

Charles Schelle: 12:00

Yeah. Right., this can go like so many different cases where they're not forced to do it, but they feel like they owe it to the abuser to help them out. And that's how that they get taken advantage of

Judy Postmus: 12:14

Sure.

Charles Schelle: 12:14

It's like, you know, whether it's a car loan or something else.

Judy Postmus: 12:17

Sure. And again, we all do that with our partners. Yeah. Right. I mean, if you're with somebody and, and especially, you know, in this country, we have a history of not necessarily teaching financial management skills to individuals that often you even think about how did you learn about how to manage money. Right? Where did you learn it from? Did you get it in school? Did you get it from your family? Did you get it? And what roles did you play? You know, if you come like I did from a traditional family, if a mother and a father, the father managed the money because my mother sucked at it. But, but that was still a joint decision and she still had access. And when major decisions were being made about, you know, major purchases, she was part of, and she understood everything that was, you know, she had a part of it. It wasn't completely put aside.

Charles Schelle: 13:00

Yeah.

Judy Postmus: 13:01

But if you're in a relationship and you're like, oh honey, I can take care of all this for you. Don't worry about it. I got. Or I, you know, I need help with a loan to, to purchase a car or something else. Yeah. Yeah. I'll co-sign for you. I mean, there's, there's some things that we do and again, it's a form of manipulation, right?

Charles Schelle: 13:17

Mm-hmm, Judy Postmus: It's, it's tied with goal of controlling the person. Which often leads as you know, we've known for decades, as survivors have said, one of the main reasons they stay in a relationship is because of money, right?

Jena Frick: 13:29

Yeah.

Judy Postmus: 13:29

Because they had lack of access to it. Well, the lack of access might be, they don't know what they have. They don't know what's out there. They can't get to it. They, you know, all of these reasons and where they have a poor credit score, which will never get a loan or even get a rental agreement nowadays. So, so these are really concrete examples of how it could really damage a survivor and trapper in that relationship.

Charles Schelle: 13:49

Yeah.

Dana Rampolla: 13:50

Right. I personally know someone who, well, I know two people who've had people open credit cards in their names.

Judy Postmus: 13:56

Sure.

Dana Rampolla: 13:57

And then they have that debt and one person it's been years and years, and he's still fighting legally. You know, he, he doesn't even have a savings account because he's afraid to have anyone know that he has money. So he literally keeps money in a box in the closet because it's destroyed him financially.

Judy Postmus: 14:13

Right.

Dana Rampolla: 14:14

And it's a constant battle

Judy Postmus: 14:15

It can take decades to fix this.

Dana Rampolla: 14:17

Yeah. I was just gonna say, thankfully, you're addressing this and, you know, opening, even through the podcast, opening people's eyes to it. Right?

Judy Postmus: 14:25

Part of it is just bringing greater awareness to it and having people become, oh, this is what this is part of it is even addressing some of the policies. So I just learned a few weeks ago that Maine passed a law that made this illegal.

Charles Schelle: 14:38

Hmm.

Judy Postmus: 14:39

And that abusers can be held liable for what happens. I'm not a hundred percent sure whether it's only, I think it might be in civil court, not criminal court. Other countries are moving towards making it more in criminal court. Uh, the UK has a, they call it their coercive control law where they, it's not just physical violence that you can make in arrest, but it's other forms of violence, it's and abuse as well. And so there's, there's some attention being given to this, um, across the globe. Um, as we think about how damaging this can be for somebody to survive.

Jena Frick: 15:10

Absolutely. And this is all fairly new. You had said that, uh, I, I believe it was the late 2000s is when this started really like having like a, a term tied to it, right?

Judy Postmus: 15:19

Mm-hmm

Jena Frick: 15:19

Wow.

Judy Postmus: 15:20

Yeah, it really was the, the generous support and the focus of the Allstate Foundation. And it's interesting when you think about, you know, it's the insurance company and their philanthropic arm and you think, well, why would they be interested in this? Well, they took domestic violence on as a cause. And then, because they um, have an arm of the insurance company that focuses on financial management and financial advising that they thought, well, why don't we focus on this? And so along with again, the National Network to End Domestic Violence, and they work with all the different coalitions around the country, you know, it was a way of providing funding for service providers to focus on this, um, and to try to develop some new programs and new strategies to help survivors deal with the outcome of the abuse.

Jena Frick: 16:03

Right. And, and it, because this is such a new term and you know, I think all three of us are learning a lot just from this one piece of the conversation that we're having. How difficult is it to uncover like someone who is being financially abused, or even to realize that they're being financially abused by their partner?

Judy Postmus: 16:21

Any form of abuse is difficult to uncover. You know, if, if a survivor is fully aware of abuse and understands all the different formats and forms that it takes that he or she could reach out for services to a, to an organization, but most don't. Most victims only think because this is what's been in our media and what's been in the news is physical violence. And so often it's those who get into services that they're now starting to ask more about the financial abuse now in the general public, however, some of it might be, are there red flags, and just having conversations with individuals around money, which is hard because our society, you know, a few things we don't talk about, we don't talk about politics. We don't talk about money. We don't talk about sex. So it's, so it's hard, you know, to have conversations around money with your friends and family. So you might not know unless you ask.

Jena Frick: 17:14

Okay.

Dana Rampolla: 17:16

So there's a lot more to understanding, um, intimate partner, financial and economic abuse. What exactly are you looking for in your research? Like what type of data are you trying to collect?

Judy Postmus: 17:27

So, it's twofold. One is to understand the experiences and the prevalence of, of financial abuse and the different types and how prevalent it is, the three various types. And then looking at what is the impact of that abuse. There's a longitudinal data set. That's called fragile families where we, um, looked at economic abuse. You know, women who were participating in the study who had experienced economic abuse and what the impact was on things like child rearing and there was an impact that there was, if they experienced abuse, economic abuse, there was a positive relationship with, with child rearing around spanking around some of the forms of, of parental decisions. We've learned that economic abuse is connected to depression and anxiety. We've learned that it's definitely connected to financial strain, which obviously right. Um, and, and definitely connected to financial wellbeing. And so. So that's part of what I do with my studies is looking at where is the relationship between financial abuse and other variables. Um, but the other side that I look at is financial empowerment and how do we, what do we need to do? And financial abuse is part of that, to understand that, to really then empower survivors, to be self-sufficient, to have self-efficacy and the confidence to manage the money, to have assets that they can access. Um, and to have the knowledge that they need to, to manage money and know how to pay bills and take out loans and save and think of retirement and so forth. So on.

Jena Frick: 19:00

Yeah. So for women who, uh, are listening and maybe think that this sounds all too familiar to them, what, what can they do and where can they go for help? Uh, for escaping financial abuse in this way?

Judy Postmus: 19:13

Well, for sure, reaching out to your domestic violence provider in your county. Every county has, uh, in, and the city of Baltimore have domestic violence providers. Um, House of Ruth is here in, in city of Baltimore. There's a Maryland Coalition Against Domestic Violence. Um, go to their website, people can find their, what, what's the name of the organization in their county to get support that way. Um, I also think if, if the person is, uh, connected to a financial advisor to have a conversation with them, they can talk to individuals at the bank to try to get some not support for abuse but to try to get some remediation in helping them, perhaps with their credit score and identifying and going through their credit score, which is certainly an important thing to review, um, and, or putting other flags on accounts so that they don't get drained or get misused. Um, and finally the Allstate Foundation has online an entire curriculum that, that individuals can take on their own to learn about, not just learn about financial abuse, but also to learn. So what do you do about it? How do you find hidden assets? How do you. How do you, how do you find your credit score and then what can you do to repair it? And that's where financial advisors can come in and help you with that. Um, and there's different programs out there. It just depends on who's available. And again, the, the DV organizations should know and would know, and if they don't, they can also reach out to the National Network to End Domestic Violence, that they also have a number of resources on their website.

Jena Frick: 20:38

Yeah. And obviously this is a really difficult topic to, to speak about, I mean, money is like a sensitive topic that people don't necessarily talk about. So like what, what can people do who maybe have a friend or somebody in their life that maybe they're seeing signs or red flags about this? What they, what can they do to help that person, uh, is get out of this situation or take steps to not kind of fall into this?

Judy Postmus: 21:00

Yeah.

Jena Frick: 21:00

Financial reliance or

Judy Postmus: 21:02

it's really hard. Um, because part of it, you know, the first step is asking.

Jena Frick: 21:06

Sure

Judy Postmus: 21:06

And asking in a private way where the abuser's not around, asking, um, in a supportive way. Um, because again, it's really hard for individuals to acknowledge that they are a victim of this.

Jena Frick: 21:20

Mm-hmm

Judy Postmus: 21:20

Nobody wants to say, Hey, I'm a victim of domestic violence. Nobody wants to say it. And so. It's important to ask the question and, and ask and, and talk about these different forms if this is happening. Um, and then, because we also know financial abuse is connected to other forms of abuse to then perhaps ask about others. Again, the key to this though, is knowing how to ask and asking in a, in a understanding way to watch facial reactions because survivors will dictate how much they'll tell you based on how you react, and to understand that they might say no. When the answer really is. Yes, because they don't feel safe in doing it yet. Also understand that they might say yes and you strategize and create a plan. We talk about a creating a safety plan for victims of, of physical violence. We, where there's also financial safety plans, where you help somebody be financially safe, right. To have their, their assets be safe. Um, again, not all survivors are ready to make decisions. And so sometimes it takes, it takes multiple times asking in a supportive manner and when they're ready and letting them know that you're a safe person to talk to, and that you're more than happy to, to work with them and get them connected and, and, and be there for them. But um, but knowing., it might be a journey for some women. They make a decision and they're like, okay, I'm done. For many, it's a journey. It's not a one and done of, oh, I I'm, I'm a victim, and I have to leave because there's so many other complicating factors, including money.

Jena Frick: 22:56

Absolutely. Yeah. Right. And, and you say creating a financial safety plan, what are, what are some things, steps that people can take to create a financial safety plan for themselves to protect themselves?

Judy Postmus: 23:07

So some of it is looking at a credit score. So accessing a credit score that might be if you know how to do it. And they say, oh, I've never done a credit score. I've never looked at mine. Um, so you know, maybe, oh, let's sit down together and look at it. If you're okay to do that. And then look, they'll see all the credit cards, right. That are being and then go. Are these yours, are you aware of them? Mm-hmm um, I think, uh, connecting them and having them talk to someone at the bank to protect their, if they have accounts at a bank, um, checking and savings account, the joint accounts of saying, okay, well, I can't take all the money and put it in a private account because it is still joint, but I, you could install, notifications that let you know if you're spending, you know, if a certain amount goes out, right? And so, but that, you know, you can do that online with your bank, or you can talk to somebody at the bank and to help you figure out how to do that. So there's different ways of, of protecting the finances and the, and the, um, the money that you have. Um, you know, there's for some financial safety planning, it's it's how can you save some money in a way that he does he, or she doesn't know.

Charles Schelle: 24:12

Mm-hmm

Dana Rampolla: 24:12

Right..

Judy Postmus: 24:13

And how can you hide that money so that when you're ready to leave, you have a little nest egg, right?

Dana Rampolla: 24:18

Right.

Charles Schelle: 24:19

Speaking of, of helping these folks in creating plans, Comes to mind the Financial Social Work Institute at the University of Maryland School of Social Work. What are maybe the things that you're teaching the future or current social workers in this space?

Judy Postmus: 24:33

Right. So the Financial Social Work Institute or Initiative

Charles Schelle: 24:36

Initiative. Yes, sorry.

Judy Postmus: 24:37

It's okay. Their mission is to really educate as many social workers as possible for their, for personally, for themselves as students, right? To understand financial management and how to manage their own money. Cuz again, where do we learn how to do this?

Charles Schelle: 24:52

Right. Right.

Judy Postmus: 24:53

Sometimes we don't. Um, and second then to teach them how to, when working with clients, how to help them manage their money. Um, the key about even the financial literacy, um, curriculum that the Allstate Foundation created. It is a curriculum that is pretty standard for all financial literacy. And, you know, how do you save, how do you create a budget? You know, how do you track your expenses? I mean, there's all those standard things all the way on to, how do you do a 401k and what that means and how to invest in IRAs? I mean the full, the full range, right? So the Financial Social Work Initiative does that. Um, the other layer that the Allstate Foundation adds is this focus on finding hidden assets, checking your credit score, um, and understanding financial abuse.

Charles Schelle: 25:38

Well, let's talk about some of your recent research where you looked at the impact of Latina, intimate partner violence survivors when it came to economic empowerment. Why is it so important to highlight the, uh, these issues specifically for Latinas?

Judy Postmus: 25:53

So depending on the sample and in this case, the sample, um, of women that we interviewed, uh, over 400 women, uh, who came from a, a diverse background. We had about 45% of our sample were from Latinx backgrounds. So mind you, that's a pretty divergent group in and of themselves. They're not, you know, someone from Mexico is not the same as someone from Puerto Rico and not the same as someone from Chile. And so, you know, so having that understanding is a whole nother issue, right. Um, most of the women, including the Latinx population that were in the sample had very low incomes. I would say 75% had less than 25,000 a year.

Charles Schelle: 26:36

Oh, wow.

Judy Postmus: 26:37

They were from service providers. And so sometimes that's who goes to service providers or those who don't have the means to do something else. So. So there's, there's already a limited, lower socioeconomic group from the sample. This isn't again, not like everybody else. Um, the other thing that's for Latinas is important is that there's, there were a number of, we also asked how long they had lived in this country. Um, or if they were, you know, an immigrant and if so, how long they had lived in this country. And we found that there was a large percentage of immigrant women, and some of them had lived here more than 10 years. And others had been here like less than a year. So one of the things to understand is again, where do people learn about how to manage their money and for low income individuals they're often don't have access to or don't understand banks. Hmm. Cause if you think about some low income neighborhoods, there aren't any banks.

Charles Schelle: 27:34

Right. Right.

Judy Postmus: 27:35

Or if you think about, so how much money do you need to open up an account? Right. If you don't have the money. Right. And so what happens is that for Latinas and others from low income that they often get caught up in payday loans and other forms of, of people taking advantage of, and that we're paying outrageous rates just to get cash, but because they're operating on a cash basis. Now for immigrant women, they might also have to be sending money back home.

Charles Schelle: 28:04

Right.

Dana Rampolla: 28:05

Right. Right..

Judy Postmus: 28:05

So, so it's, it's, it's way more difficult to try to figure. What are their needs and how do we help? Because if they are being abused, um, and, and experiencing predatory loans and things like that, that I think that this is where it's important to understand their experience with economic abuse and what it meant to them in the long run.

Charles Schelle: 28:28

So did you see any connections or correlations, um, that helped empower them even more?

Judy Postmus: 28:35

Um, well, I mean, the biggest empowerment was ensuring that the, the curriculum was, um, was culturally sensitive.

Charles Schelle: 28:43

Yeah

Judy Postmus: 28:43

Meaning it was also in a different language.

Charles Schelle: 28:46

Mm-hmm

Judy Postmus: 28:46

And so many of the, of the groups and the organizations we worked with where we recruited our sample, um, they had, you know, the, the services were being provided in Spanish. Um, and I think that that's, that's the first critical step.

Charles Schelle: 28:59

Oh yeah.

Judy Postmus: 28:59

And again, it becomes part of that awareness and education of how do you, how do you understand how to do this?

Charles Schelle: 29:04

Yeah.

Judy Postmus: 29:04

And then what are the barriers you find and how can we help you with those barriers?

Charles Schelle: 29:08

Hard enough for me to understand finances in English.

Dana Rampolla: 29:10

Right. To me, it just seems so overwhelming. Judy, when I'm, I'm trying to picture these primarily the set of women, and they're already struggling with possibly the language and then low income, like when you're already at a low income point and you're being abused. Like, it seems hopeless to me. I don't mean to be a pessimist, but yeah, this is sad.

Judy Postmus: 29:34

It's just harder.

Dana Rampolla: 29:35

Yeah.

Judy Postmus: 29:35

I mean, it's it's and again, you can see why finances might be a really big reason why they don't leave. And some of it is, you know, the women we had in our study, we followed them for 18 months, 15, 15 months. We followed them for 15 months and we, and then even for some of the Latinas uh from a couple of, of the agencies, we for qualitative portion asked them even six months later, after the 15 months about the impact of the curriculum, knowledge is power. Having an awareness and understanding of the different types of abuse and how they're experiencing it, knowing what the safety plans are, knowing what to do, who to reach out to and doing it over a period of time, you know, again, you think about our students who come in for orientation and, you know, we bombard them with all this information and yet they're not gonna remember most of it. So, cause it takes time to sink in. It's the same thing for survivors. They're not gonna remember all of it at one time. Um, especially if they're in a crisis. So it's, it takes time to work with them and to provide that information. But you know, the survivors that we interviewed long term, they, the Latina survivors, they said it, they were able to save. They were able to get out and, and, and find housing. They started teaching their children about financial management.

Dana Rampolla: 30:54

Nice.

Judy Postmus: 30:55

And for some survivors, in fact, a few of our researchers said they had to double check this with them. They were said they were, they were looking at retirement and had a retirement account. And they were like, it was again, it was, the research was like, really?! So, because we weren't expecting this from low income. So knowledge is power. Developing the confidence that yes, you, you can manage the money. Yes you can overcome this, that self-efficacy giving them the skills or the self-sufficiency to, to actually manage, the money. And then giving them access to assets. So some programs around the country will do a match savings program. So for every dollar you save, I'll match it with 1, 2, 3, 4 up to $7 depending on the program.

Dana Rampolla: 31:43

Okay.

Judy Postmus: 31:43

And so that's another way of helping individuals develop those assets. I'm keeping these four areas to really think about, well, what is financial empowerment? It is knowledge. It is self-efficacy. It is self-sufficiency. And it is having access to assets.

Dana Rampolla: 31:59

And so it is hopeful so the outcomes are quantitative. You are able to see actual change happen.

Judy Postmus: 32:04

Oh, absolutely. We saw over for the entire sample, we saw an improvement in their knowledge, an improvement in their self-sufficiency skills and improvement in their self-efficacy and how they've felt and their confidence about money. We saw an improvement or, or actually a decrease in financial strain. We, I mean, so we saw an improvement in their financial behaviors where they were actually implementing some of the, the, the things taught and learned from the curriculum. So, yeah, no, it does. Yeah, it does help. And it does, it does work. It's it's you just it's that knowledge is power and giving, focusing on those other areas as well can really make a difference.

Dana Rampolla: 32:42

While we are not here to, uh, promote Allstate. Yay for Allstate

Charles Schelle: 32:46

You're in good hands.

Dana Rampolla: 32:47

Yeah. Yeah. Judy let's, let's kind of change gears a little bit. Let's talk a little bit about you and growing up in Miami, the journey of your parents. Tell us, how did you get to where you are?

Judy Postmus: 32:59

Yeah, it's an interesting journey cuz you know, my parents are immigrants. They fled with their families as teenagers after World War II from Europe, from the Netherlands. So grew up very much in a low income home where my father was a construction worker. He was a plasterer, which is a dying breed of construction workers. Um, mother stayed home because there were four or five of us, depending on the years, um, in the home. And, and, um, it was tough. And so not having father had an eighth grade education, but you give him. numbers, you know, three digit numbers and multiplied by another three digit number and he could do it in his head.

Dana Rampolla: 33:42

Oh, wow.

Judy Postmus: 33:42

I mean, so very smart.

Charles Schelle: 33:44

Yeah.

Judy Postmus: 33:44

Um, but just not having the education. Mom got, you know, high school . Education in the Netherland wanted to go on college was told by her mom, either you go and we're gonna leave you behind, or you move with us to the U.S. So not having much choice, but not having anybody. I had older siblings who went to college. That some finished undergrad, others didn't. And so for me, it was, you know, a journey of, of, I went I chuckle and say, I went to three undergraduate programs and still finished with my undergraduate degree in four and a half years.

Jena Frick: 34:15

Wow. Wow.

Judy Postmus: 34:15

Yeah, it was not the smartest way to do this, but I did not have, I didn't have the. who, you know, the guidance, the mentoring, the, how do I do this? What do I do? What, what makes sense? And so, um, you know, I started working in Liberty City in Miami, which is like west Baltimore, very low income, a lot of public housing, a lot of, primarily at the time African American families struggling with, uh, the race riots that we had at Miami in the early eighties, which is dating me. Thank you very much. Um, but, uh, uh, so working with families and youth and, and realizing that my undergraduate degree in nutrition,

Dana Rampolla: 34:53

Oh boy.,

Judy Postmus: 34:55

wasn't helping so much.

Dana Rampolla: 34:56

Right.

Judy Postmus: 34:57

Um, and I had had a friend who had gone off to get a master's in social work and I was like, huh, maybe I should get that degree. Some of this is just stumbling in until I found some really good mentors.

Charles Schelle: 35:07

Yeah.

Judy Postmus: 35:07

So once I got my master's degree, there were a couple of faculty members who basically put me under their wings and said, we're gonna, we're gonna work with you. Um, you know, and these two African American women, strong women, strong academics. I mean, I learned so much from them throughout my career. And at some point while I was practicing, they said, you need to go off and get a PhD. And you need to leave the state of Florida.

Charles Schelle: 35:31

Yeah.

Judy Postmus: 35:32

And I questioned the state of Florida thing and they said, cuz my undergrad degree was from Miami. MSW was from Miami and they're like, you need to experience a different part of the country because Florida is different from the rest of the country.

Charles Schelle: 35:43

Absolutely.

Judy Postmus: 35:44

Absolutely.. So, well, which PhD program? You know, I didn't know about rankings. I didn't know about anything and stumbled into a really good one because they made the best offer on how much money and I picked based on location. So I ended up in Albany, New York.

Dana Rampolla: 35:58

Oh boy.

Jena Frick: 35:59

Wow. Big change.

Judy Postmus: 36:01

Big change,

Charles Schelle: 36:01

Big change. Right.

Judy Postmus: 36:02

Huge change. And I had, by that point I had started working with kids at runaway and homeless youth shelters, and then eventually worked in a domestic abuse program where they hired me as an executive director. And I didn't know anything about domestic violence. And so I learned from the, from the survivors who were there from the staff, from the perpetrators we worked with, I learned a lot during my time, um, doing that. And so that's what kept me involved in the, my PhD program, focusing on this as a research area. And I chose as my dissertation, the family violence option, which at the time uh, there was welfare reform where everything got changed in the mid nineties and there was an amendment called the Family Violence Option that allowed, if you identified as a victim, you could get extra things. If you were applying for TANF the Temporary Assistance For Needy Families, which is our welfare policy. That was my research study was to evaluate that particular um, amendment, which got me into, you know, thinking about poverty and money and things like that. And, and it wasn't until, you know, I, my first academic job then was at the University of Kansas. Another culture shock of going from east coast to the middle of the country, which is completely different as well.

Charles Schelle: 37:13

Mm-hmm,

Judy Postmus: 37:14

Learned a lot, but missed the diversity of the east coast, came back and got a job at Rutgers University where November of my first year there in 2006, I met the program officer from the Allstate Foundation.

Jena Frick: 37:26

Mm-hmm okay.

Judy Postmus: 37:27

And from there, this is how getting involved. I, I had not focused on economic abuse specifically, but had focused on the issue of low income and survivors and what can we do to help? And what should we be? What kind of services should we be looking at? And especially one of my studies early on that was funded by the National Institute of Justice when I was at Kansas, I asked survivors their history of abuse over their lifetime. And then I asked them, okay, after those abuse experiences, what kind of services did you get? Did you seek out? And there were a list of 25 different services. And after each service, I said, how helpful were they? So I didn't need the names of the organizations. It was just general services. And what you found was a lot of counseling, a lot of, you know, support groups and, and a lot of services that they reached out to some some legal assistance and some things you would normally think of

Charles Schelle: 38:20

mm-hmm

Judy Postmus: 38:21

for services that they would receive, but the most helpful were the ones tied to money.

Charles Schelle: 38:26

Oh,

Dana Rampolla: 38:27

Interesting.

Charles Schelle: 38:27

And you're like, if I would've known.

Judy Postmus: 38:29

Correct. And so that kind of launched a whole nother that, that kind of fed into this. Oh, well, Allstate Foundation has this new program and this is, this is interesting findings, right? Of, of maybe we're focusing a little bit in a wrong direction, or we need to supplement what we're doing.

Charles Schelle: 38:46

Mm-hmm

Judy Postmus: 38:47

That it's important to talk about the cognitive and what happens in your, you know, and talking to survivors about the abuser that stays in the brain, right. And, and tells them things. And, but we also need to be helping them with money and getting resources and getting a job and finding housing. And, you know, addressing their credit score and you know, all of those other things, because those concrete assistance is what is really needed.

Jena Frick: 39:11

Yeah. I mean, that's like a foundation of being able to be successful and thrive. Just having that core, absolutely bit of like, you know, a stable money, stable home, all that stuff. Those what, what the social determinants of health dinner, you know, , that's how you are successful.

Judy Postmus: 39:26

You would again, but it's, it's fascinating how, from a social work perspective, you know, that we often don't fail to remember that. And even when I worked in the field, that's why it was an interesting finding because we didn't necessarily have research showing the survivor saying, oh, but these I, you know, I got these services. Yay. But the ones I found most helpful were the ones that we didn't think about as much, or we don't think about as much. That's incredible.

Jena Frick: 39:53

That's what a journey you've been on to get to where you are, undergrad and nutrition and , it's who you are.

Charles Schelle: 39:58

Especially all that time in Miami. I was just thinking like, you know, I lived in Sarasota for like four years for briefly and been to Miami a handful of times, but it's such a cultural melting pot. And as Florida's unlike any other part of the country, Miami's unlike any other part of Florida, let alone the country too, because you know, you think about the mix down there between Cuban, Puerto Rican. And you had people coming from The Bahamas regularly, and then, um, everyone else around the world, it's just so unique. So I'm sure that had to make a, an impression on you as a young girl.

Judy Postmus: 40:35

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And it, you know, I remember working in the shelter for runaway and homeless youth at, at one point there were 75 staff. There were seven nationalities represented and there were five whites working.

Charles Schelle: 40:52

Wow.

Judy Postmus: 40:53

Everyone else had came from different cultural background from Spanish to Black to, to, you know, everything to island to. I mean, we, we just had, it was, it was a big melting pot and it was, it was a wonderful experience.

Charles Schelle: 41:07

Yeah.

Judy Postmus: 41:08

For me to learn how to interact with and be part of, um, and, and why even coming to the University of Maryland school of Social Work, one of my interests was because of this connection to the city of Baltimore and the work that was being done here.

Charles Schelle: 41:23

Great.

Jena Frick: 41:24

Yeah. And so you talked a lot about how, you know, you had some mentors that kind of helped, uh, guide you to your next steps along your journey. So who or what inspires you to do the work that you do? I know it's a big question.

Judy Postmus: 41:39

It's a big question. Um, you know, I think that I'm inspired by a number of people and it changes over time. I mean, my mentors have the mentors I had early on have passed away. Um, you know, and so I look to other mentors, whether it's. You know, now in my Dean's role, I'm looking to other deans and to other here at the university, as well as other universities. Um, I'm looking for, you know, those who are doing education, look for them. I look for mentors, cuz mentors to me are people who teach you things. And so even working with community groups and learning from those who are living here and the work that's being done and talking to the staff and the faculty and learning from them, I mean, they, they all help form who I am as a, as a Dean and who I am as a scholar. Um, and you know, continued doing that work. I'm, you know, I'm still involved. I talk about with students, I talk about being a first generation student. I talk about being a member of the L G B T community. And I said, my other tribe, or my community is my violence against women and children tribe, um, of the researchers and students who are interested in that and that I have that as my go-to place, when, you know, we wanna talk and learn from each other. Um, so yeah, so that's, so there's, it's, you know, mentors are, it's a mosaic. I always talk about it being a mosaic that, you know, different people at different times for different reasons. And they can be people who have positions above you. People who have positions, not above you. It can be anybody.

Charles Schelle: 43:06

Right.

Jena Frick: 43:07

Yeah. And that's what you need to continue growing and continue moving on as a person. Right, right.

Judy Postmus: 43:10

And keeping yourself open.

Jena Frick: 43:12

Yeah.

Judy Postmus: 43:12

I mean, I think that that's been for me and, and I tell this of students as well. I mean, there's no way, you know, as I was standing up at orientation thinking I would be standing up as a Dean.

Dana Rampolla: 43:22

Right.

Judy Postmus: 43:23

There's no way in my act, no way. When I was a MSW student thinking that I would ever, there's no way. So, you know, the, the, the point of it is to keep yourself open, listen to mentors. Look for opportunities. See, you know, focus on your skills and what you have, what, you know, assess your, what drives you and your passion and then go for it.

Charles Schelle: 43:42

Yeah. Well, you settled into Baltimore, uh, now for about two years

Judy Postmus: 43:46

mm-hmm

Charles Schelle: 43:46

and part of that we've been shut down.

Judy Postmus: 43:49

mm-hmm

Charles Schelle: 43:49

with the pandemic. So now that everything's opening up, let's have a little bit of fun. What's your favorite? Uh, thing to do. What's your favorite hangout in the area now that you've kind of discovered Charm City. So I'm still learning that um, because, because it was shut down and, you know, so, so you. to give credit to the university. My favorite hangout is my office and being held. being there with faculty and staff. President Jarrell will like that answer. So I, you know, but I do enjoy being with faculty, staff and students. And I think that that is where I spend a lot of my time. Um I think that other areas that, you know, I am a vegan as well.

Judy Postmus: 44:27

And so I am, I have tried. Anytime there's I'm like, oh, new vegan restaurant. I gotta go try or a restaurant that's got vegan options and you'll find them in those strangest places.

Charles Schelle: 44:37

Really?

Jena Frick: 44:38

So I, I wanna give a shout out to Golden West Cafe in Hamden on the Avenue. They have amazing vegan options there and it's open like all the time.

Judy Postmus: 44:49

Been there many times. Yeah. Awesome. I'll if you're doing a shout out, I'll do a shout out Johnny Rads. Oh, yeah.

Jena Frick: 44:54

Johnny rads also has some great options,

Judy Postmus: 44:56

Which, you know, it's a skater bar. You walk in going, I don't know. They have a number of vegan options because I believe somebody who's a general manager, one of the owners vegan.

Jena Frick: 45:05

Yeah. I used to live a block away from there, so I know it very well.

Judy Postmus: 45:08

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. There's so, so some of the vegan places I'm, you know, I'm still learning. I also like to hang out at my house because I have a pool.

Charles Schelle: 45:17

Yeah. I was gonna say it's probably cuz of your you're spending your time meeting so many people, you just need chill time alone. Yeah. And just like be away from everyone. I, I completely get that, but I was thinking too, Lexington Market is very close to opening their new building. Yes. So I'd imagine that there has to be at least one or two really good vegan options when, when that opens up.

Judy Postmus: 45:39

Yes. I've already looked at the list.

Dana Rampolla: 45:41

Good. And I talked to Paul Rupert, so Paul who manages all the markets in the city. He is, I am part of the Baltimore Leadership Class of 2022.

Charles Schelle: 45:50

Yeah. Oh, nice.

Judy Postmus: 45:51

And he's in that same class. And so. We were talking just yesterday about that, that Well, a slight tease

Charles Schelle: 45:57

because you know, you'll be closer, much closer to the market soon, right? Yes.

Judy Postmus: 46:01

Yeah. Five, they say five years.

Charles Schelle: 46:03

Five years new building.

Judy Postmus: 46:04

New building on the corner of Lexington and Greene, which will be, you know, literally right about a block away from the market. Yeah. Yeah.

Charles Schelle: 46:11

Basically

Judy Postmus: 46:12

I'm excited.

Charles Schelle: 46:13

Great. So, well, thank you so much, for spending your time and, and talking about, uh, financial abuse. Uh, it's a very important topic to, to get out there cuz as you mentioned at the top, it is somewhat invisible and so hopefully we can shed some light and help some people understand it. So thank you so much, Dean Postmus.

Judy Postmus: 46:32

Thank you. Appreciate being here.

Charles Schelle: 46:36

What if somebody told you that that ballistic test that could send somebody to jail is just as Bulletproof as that Tinder match becoming your spouse. Doesn't sound too convincing. Does it? While on our November episode of the UMB Pulse, Maneka Sinha will join us to talk about how some forensic science is considered junk. Sinha is an associate professor at the University of Maryland Francis King Carey School of Law and leads the Criminal Defense Law Clinic. If that question didn't frighten you, maybe our upcoming bonus episode on the Westminster Hall and Burying Ground will. We will take you inside this historic hall at UMB just in time for Halloween. You're gonna tour the catacombs underneath the grounds, and we'll share how you too can tour the catacombs with friends and visit Edgar Allan Poe's grave site. And on a much, much lighter side, we will have another bonus episode on the new Lexington Market. We'll talk about food vendors, UMB support of the market , . And what the new market means for the neighborhood. The easiest way to know when all of these episodes are out is to hit that follow button on Apple or Spotify. And if you've already subscribed well, thank you to our Pulse Pals and thank you for listening to the UMB Pulse.